Natalist stalemate

When some antinatalists argue from the idea that
There was NOBODY who wanted to come into existence.

Pronatalists may claim with the same right that
There was NOBODY who did not want to come into existence.

While antinatalists speak of existence as being imposed on non-existers, pronatalists conceive of a deprivation of existence with respect to non-existers.

Both arguments seem to be wrong for ontological (semantic) reasons.

 

 

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4 thoughts on “Natalist stalemate

  1. How hard is it to get it?
    This is the world of matter, consciousness is not matter, is from outside, this world is like a black hole that sucks things frm outisde, a different kind of entities, energy, spitis, consciousness, it deletes the memory and forces, kidnaps it, them, into material animal bodies.
    Human consciousness exists outside this material world/universe, but without pain or limitations.
    Being sucked here is one mistake, don’t add another by believing evolution, we didn’t come from here, we didn’t start here, we were trapped here, which is different.
    Where are you? Not in your brain, you are in another ‘realm’, or ‘dimension’, linked to, forced to ‘be’, to feeel inside, with the human body, but you are trully it, you are forced to be with it, that is different.
    And this is not religious, religions always are pro-natalist, those who weren’t like the gnostic, anti-natalist cathars for example were hunted down and burned alive.
    This world didn’t just appear by evolution, it was designed, by an evil force, a very basic and ugly design, don’t underestimate yourself.
    That’s what they want, that’s why they put us in cities, to appear to be less, just an ant, that’s why they push the fake millenia long ‘history’, or the fake immense ‘solar system and galaxies’, or the coming-from-an-ape thing, to humiliate us so there is less chance of us even thinking or remembering or sensing that we come from beyond, outside this material world, they want us to put ourselves to sleep after we leave this, if that’s what you think should happen once the material world / life looses control over you your own volition, desires, ‘will’, will be more in power.

  2. Hello Francois, I see where you’re coming from. However, things seem to look different if we delve into the ontology of the expression COMING INTO EXISTENCE. I admit that it is somewhat odd: Consider that an entity cannot be affected by its coming into existence, that is to say: by its very beginning. It needs to be there in order to be affected. If an elementary particle begins to exist it is not affected by its beginning; once it exists it can be affected. In a similar manner there was no (pre-existing) ME that was done harm to when I began to exist. The harm followed only later when I (the sentient foetus) had the first negative sensations.
    For the above mentioned reasons I prefer saying: If people procreate or breed they act in such a way that one more sentient being will have negative sensations. There might even have been some sentient beings that never had negative experiences. Think for example of a foetus that had gained proto-consciosness. It perhaps experienced a trance-like feeling of warmth or a reddish colour or a sugary taste. Then the foetus died in the fraction of a second. At no point was there any harm being done to that foetus.
    Let’s think of a second foetus whose first sensation was heat or a garish light or a bitter taste. Was this foetus harmed by its own coming into existence? No. Its very existence (and in this case: sentience) was a precondition for any harm to be there.

    • Seriously? You’re going to use the Non-Identity Problem on ME? The guy who wrote the best takedown of it? You might as well just come out and admit you’re a natalist. I’m disgusted with you.

  3. No… there is one thing missing from YOUR argument, and that is the necessity of consent. We don’t need consent to NOT harm someone or affect them in any way. We DO need consent to harm someone.

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